March 9, 2017
Growth Dilemmas: Don’t Be a Victim of No Man’s Land
Doug Tatum, Chairman of the Board, Newport Board Group

John Monahon:

Today, we're going to talk about no man's land, which, if you've ever played tennis, you know is a spot that you never want to end up on the court.

Evelyn Ashley:

Sure death, huh?

John Monahon:

Yeah, sure death definitely. You've got to either move up or move back. Today we're going to talk about it in the business context, right?

Evelyn Ashley:

Yeah. We talked a little bit about Doug's book earlier. Doug Tatum, of course, is very, very experienced in this area. This whole dilemma, if you will, fits perfectly with our listening audience.

John Monahon:

Yeah, I mean I think a lot of companies find themselves in a position where they've had some success, they've grown a little bit, but they're sort of stuck. They don't know how to get to that next level.

Evelyn Ashley:

I think too, businesses, they get to a point where finally the feel like, "We're successful. Now we're going up to the next level," and miss the point that there is a transition that's necessary there, whether that be in management or focus or where it is.

John Monahon:

Right.

Evelyn Ashley:

They kind of fall apart sometimes as a result.

John Monahon:

Well hopefully Doug will be able to give us some insight on that. We're thrilled to have Doug Tatum, Chairman of the Board for Newport Board Group with us. Newport Board Group is a national partnership of CEOs and senior executives who advise emerging middle market companies and the private equity firms that invest in them. Doug is the author of No Man's Land: Where Growing Companies Fail. Doug also serves as an Entrepreneur in Residence at the Jim Moran Institute for Global Entrepreneurship at Florida State University. He is the immediate past chairman of the board for The Association for Corporate Growth, a global not for profit organization. Previously, Doug was chairman and CEO of Tatum, LLC, which grew into a highly respected national professional services firm with 30 offices and over 1000 professionals and employees. The company was sold to Spherion in 2010. Prior to his role with Tatum, LLC, Doug served with a number of companies as a senior executive and board member. Doug, welcome to the show.

Doug Tatum:

Well, thank you guys for having me, John and Evelyn. I look forward to talking with you today about No Man's Land. I think your illustration ... I played tennis and we've all been there. In a business context, I think a lot of your audience would recognize a description of it that serves it well. When you ask them if they feel like they're too big to be small and too small to be big, I find that's a great way of getting their attention about where they are in their business evolution.

John Monahon:

The majority of businesses ... I know I've watched some presentations from you, and there are a lot of businesses, obviously, that start up every year and that try to become growth companies. I mean, what is the current landscape for businesses and especially emerging growth companies or companies that are in this no man's land segment?

Doug Tatum:

I'm privileged to serve as a senior advisor to a research institute that's currently housed up at the University of Wisconsin. We track every company in the United States for 20 years. It's a fascinating opportunity to kind of look at the checkerboard of the US company demographics. I think the first thing I would say is we had an explosion of the number of business through 2010 and the recession. Obviously, the explanation for that is that a lot of layoffs occurred in corporate America, and a lot of small businesses were formed. A vast, vast majority of them were less than 20 employees. From I want to say 2000 to 2010, through the recession, there was almost a doubling in the number of businesses, from 10 or 11 million to about 20 million. What's fascinating about it, though, is that during that same time period and since then, the number of companies above 100 employees has dropped dramatically. We'll talk a little bit more about why that might be the case. There is a group of businesses ... No man's land is generally defined, or I defined it in the book as somewhere between 20 and 100 employees would be the height of that transition, when you're too big to be small, too small to be big. Certainly some of the legacy issues related to going to financial scale follow you past 100 employees. But for your listeners out there, if you are somewhere around 20 employees and growing in that range from 20 to 100 employees, you're going to, I think, identify with what we're going to talk about today.

John Monahon:

What are some of the most common issues that you sort of see companies face that are in that space right there?

Doug Tatum:

I think the best way for your audience to think about it is, let's put a pair of glasses on them called the Four Ms. With respect to their industries and the differences to industries and companies, et cetera, I think I'm comfortable that you can explain the transitions in no man's land regardless of industry around the Four Ms. They are: Their market, how a company effectively relates to its customers and grows, and the definition of its value proposition. Then it's management. You know, who's the inner circle? What's the culture like at human scale versus financial scale? That's the transition that the company goes through, from human scale to financial scale in no man's land. Then the economic model. How it makes money when it's smaller and how it makes money as it scales. Then, finally, the capital markets, the money. What are the issues about how it faces the challenges of finding enough fuel to get to the other side.

Evelyn Ashley:

Doug, what were some of the things that you saw while you were with Tatum and working with companies that made you start thinking about the concepts of No Man's Land?

Doug Tatum:

Evelyn, that is a great, great question because in the Tatum firm we were consulting CFOs and then later CIOs to many, many thousands of these types of companies across the United States, and in some cases in foreign countries. I remember early on sitting down with my brother who actually founded the firm. I came on, I guess, as number two and then had the privilege of leading it for almost 20 years. We were at a Mexican restaurant. I wrote the concept of No Man's Land and the Four Ms down. I said, "It's like it's the same pattern over and over again." In other words, what led to the notion of no man's land and what led to, ultimately, the book was not the uniqueness of what the companies face, but the commonalities of what the companies face. I'm sure you see, you and John see a lot of that in your practice out there as well.

John Monahon:

Doug, I mean you have grown, you and your brother have both grown Tatum, LLC to a pretty large company. For a professional services firm, that's pretty difficult. Now you're growing Newport Board Group, which has been very successful as well. Are these some things that you've experienced along the way as well from I guess your personal business experience?

Doug Tatum:

Oh, sure. One of the things I tell audiences around the country is that there really is no shortcut. Now I have certainly had experience with professionally financed venture capital firms. They will leap through this chasm a lot quicker because they'll over hire management in advance. They have more capital and more access to capital than 99.99% of the businesses in the United States and, what I believe, would be the vast majority of your audiences. Both at Tatum, certainly at Newport where we really have served companies that are transitioning no man's land, we experience many of the same things that I wrote about. I kid often, when I do speeches about the subject, that I've made every mistake that I wrote about in the book. So I'm a good example of that.

John Monahon:

Yeah, it makes it a little easier to write a book when you have personal experience with the subject matter, definitely.

Doug Tatum:

Certainly, certainly.

John Monahon:

Going back to one of the first Ms, I just wanted to hit upon that. You talked a little bit about market misalignment. Can you expand on that a little bit more? Because, from reading it in the book, I think it's perfect how companies get off track.

Doug Tatum:

Yeah, first of all I think that it's very important for your audience to be objective about what allows them to grow. In the early stage, it's really some form of innovation. The way that happens out there is your audience, they face their clients or their customers and they make promises that they are obligated as a business to keep. That's what allows them to grow. I always kid business people, and I say the way you found some of the products or services that make you unique is that your customers came to you and asked you if you would do that for them. You basically lied to them and said you were an expert at it. I always get a chuckle out of that because when I ask how many people in an audience actually have told customers they can do something they've never done before, everybody raises their hands. In the early stages of a company, what you're really doing is you're making a series of promises. The entrepreneur is both managing those promises and managing what the organization's priorities are or, if you will, the operations to meet those promises. And the company grows. The limits to that formula is the physical limits of the entrepreneur. The entrepreneur cannot work any harder, work any smarter, or work any longer. At that point in time, they become misaligned with their customers. Because what happens is they start delegating either making those promises to their customers or try to delegate something on the operational side, and they're no longer simple to do business with. It's remarkably difficult to keep a business simple for a customer to do business with. Your audience will recognize this issue when sales stop growing, they spend a lot more time around customer complaints, you start hearing customer or clients say, "Well, I can't get anything done unless I talk to you." The entrepreneur has got to step back and think very, very strategically about what it is that his or her customers or clients applaud them with. What's the value proposition? What you will typically find is that there are several mixed into a bag. The key question is, which ones are scalable? Another way of saying that is to ask yourself, if you're running a business as an entrepreneur, which of the things that my customers buy from me can I get the business good at rather than myself? In other words, the entrepreneurial effort is the center of the value proposition. The business is never going to grow unless the business can become good at what the entrepreneur is good at.

Evelyn Ashley:

Doug, how does an entrepreneur, how would I recognize that? How do I see it when it presents itself or see that it's coming? Maybe what are some of the things I should be doing to get out of it, to make those changes?

Doug Tatum:

I had a gentleman come out of the audience one time and I use it as an illustration to make a point. He had gone to about 50 or 60 million dollars. He was a used aircraft parts distributor. Now, it was a small business, right around 20, 25 employees. They were doing a lot of revenues that had a very small margin. He said, "I'm in misalignment. I can't grow anymore. Everybody is working hard. It's like a really intense game of third grade soccer. Everybody runs around the ball and the ball somehow gets pushed down the field." He said, "So how do I figure out how to get to the next level?" I asked him the question: What was he good at? He was very puzzled by that and made me repeat that question a number of times. Because he's out there with the customers. He's running operations. I said, "What were you really, really good at?" He finally said, "Well, I'm really good at buying right." I said, "Explain that to me." He said, "Well, I'm in touch with the customers constantly, so I know what they need in their projects. I got out to refurbishes. I find what they want. I buy it right, and then I flip it to my customers." "In other words," I said, "you've sold it before you've really ever bought it?" He said, "Yeah, that's kind of the way the business works." Well, that's a trading business, right? Wouldn't you guys agree, T-R-A-D-I-N-G?

Evelyn Ashley:

Yeah, absolutely.

Doug Tatum:

It's a trading business. What I said was, "Well, then you're really good at it. We just determined what somebody who's really good at it can do and maximize the business with. You can't get to the next level unless you can get the business good at what you're good at. Which means you've got to figure out a process that allows other people to buy right, or you can't grow to the next level." Because we all know what would happen if he didn't buy right. Inventories go up. Profits go down. Cash flow goes away. Growth stalls. He walked away understanding that he had a real crisp idea of what the value proposition ... What the clients were paying, his customers were paying him for, was his ability to buy right. They were willing to share that value with him in his business. Secondly, he then had to turn around and say, "All right, what can I let go of in the business so I can concentrate on getting a process in getting the business good at what I'm good at?" That's the key to that market end.

Evelyn Ashley:

Welcome back. We're talking to Doug Tatum about his book, No Man's Land. Doug, when we broke we were talking about a product-based business. How you assisted the entrepreneur to identify misalignment, and the need to create a process there in order to make others in the business good at what he was doing.

Doug Tatum:

Correct.

Evelyn Ashley:

We were wondering, can you talk us through those concepts inside of a professional services business? Does it work kind of the same? Or what the differences might be in that situation.

Doug Tatum:

Yeah, it does with a nuance. You know, we talked about that. That was a distribution business. Certainly, you could imagine, if you developed a product, how that product situated against its competitive products. When you get into professional services, you either are an experienced based professional service or you're a process based professional services firm.

Let me explain the difference between the two. If you happen to be, let's say, a law firm or in many cases an accounting firm or the type of firm that we built, what you're really selling was the experience of your partners as opposed to a process that gets an answer, if that makes sense.

Evelyn Ashley:

Yes.

Doug Tatum:

There's a lot of professional services firms out there that will define a process. McKenzie would be an example of that in many cases, where you hire them. They're going to put the problem that they've been hired to solve through a process that determines an answer. In an experience based professional services firm, the real key becomes attracting and retaining the talent of the experienced. Effectively, the value proposition of the firm is a dual value proposition in that you have two customers. The firm has a partner or a service provider, the person that you're trying to attract. You have to create value to them in order to attract them. What we found, and what a lot of professional services firm I think will find, is that hunting in packs is more effective than hunting as an individual. That's referred to marketing. People will pay a premium for a brand because the markets have acknowledged that there's a consistency to the delivery of what you deliver out there. Finally, usually what you will find is a professional service firm will find a niche, for example, in a category that they've become particularly good and particularly known at that they will garner around that adds to that experience. In the old firm Tatum, one of the most interesting things was that as consulting CFOs or interim CFOs, we built an institutional ability to get started very, very quickly. That became very important to private equity. The value proposition was that I can have an experienced person, not a process, an experienced person in charge of my financial operations. They will get up to speed at lightning speed. We built some tools to help us do that. There was a definitive value proposition. Scaling it became very much what we used to call the career management system which was you either decide to go work for somebody or you build a career within our firm. Here's the advantages and so forth and so on. If that answers your question ...

Evelyn Ashley:

Yeah, that's really fabulous.

John Monahon:

Doug, I want to switch gears a little bit to another one of your Ms, which is management. This is one that I find particularly interesting because we have a lot of companies that go through sort of the growth spurt, who are in no man's land as you describe it. They might confide in us that they think that maybe one individual who may have been the right-hand man or woman is no longer meeting the needs of the company. Perhaps they've outgrown their original management. Is that something that you find is pretty typical of companies in no man's land?

Doug Tatum:

It is. It's probably the most emotionally difficult transition for the entrepreneurial leader, of all the Four Ms, to be objective about. I think the best way to think about it philosophically is to think about a business at human scale, which is what a small business is all about. A dear friend of mine, Bo Burlingham, wrote a book called Small Giants. One of the messages that I think we need as providers of services to these companies, your firm and our firm, we need to send a message to these entrepreneurs that it's okay to stay small and make money. That's completely legitimate, ethical, and legal in the US. Because you can grow yourself out of business if you don't have a scalable value proposition, financially scalable. As it relates to the management when you're at human scale, the definition of that is that the employees in your organization feel like they have the ability, a ticket if you will, to approach you, the entrepreneurial leader, with an exception. For example, it could be an exception for themselves. It could be an exception that they want to see happen for another employee or team member. It could be an exception that they want to see happen for a customer. That's probably the most predominately one. If you ask an entrepreneur how they manage the businesses that they run at human scale, a lot of their day is built around making commonsense good decisions and granting exceptions. What happens is, when you go to scale, those exceptions become precedents for somebody else to manage. For example, at my old firm, we had 30 offices. If I dropped in an office, and I made an exception for a customer after lunch or I did something related to employees, I would have a manger come back, an executive come back and say, "Great Tatum, you just created a problem for me. You've created a precedent that I've got to deal with." That transition is a very difficult one to start with. That's the first level. The second level is that every leader has an inner circle. What they don't realize is everybody in an organization knows who that inner circle is. By definition, it defines the culture of the firm. By definition, it is those folks who are in the room when the big decisions are made. Not necessarily employees of the company. It could be an outside accountant, certainly those folks like you. Evelyn, you and John serve as general counsel for these types of businesses. You guys are probably in the room when the big decisions are made. It's interesting that within the company in the early stages, the ticket to that inner circle has always been and should be appropriately loyalty. Loyalty to the entrepreneur. Loyalty to the ideas. You know, they were there when you didn't know whether they were going to get paid. You need a lot of trust there, et cetera. What happens is, if you're going to go to the next level, the inner circle, the ticket to the inner circle has to be performance, not loyalty. That transition is emotionally a raw one because you're left with sitting down and looking at your inner circle and recognizing, which many of your audience will, that there's somebody in there that's there because of loyalty, couldn't have got there without them. But you cannot get to the next place with them because they can't perform at the next level. Everybody is waiting for you to get rid of them. Getting rid of them is like sitting down with your best friend and saying, "You're no longer sufficient to be my friend." That's the difficulty of that transition.

Evelyn Ashley:

How often does that actually work? Because I can relate to this completely. I've dealt with many, many entrepreneurs through the years that their inner circle has been absolutely loyal. The business might be doing well, but from our view it's been, "When are you going to transition to the next level? If you want to sell this business someday in the future ..." It just seems to me that that, at its core, must be almost impossible for many entrepreneurs to make that decision.

Doug Tatum:

Well it is. By the way, it's okay to stay small and make money. Effectively at human scale, it's third grade soccer. That's a good visual, right? Everybody running around. It all gets done and everybody has fun. When you start getting to the next level, the rational, objective way to explain it to an entrepreneur is to say ...Let's go back to the case of the used aircraft parts distributor. That individual needs to work on a process that buys right if the business is going to have any worth outside of his personal efforts, right?

Evelyn Ashley:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Doug Tatum:

A big part of that business was logistics, right?

Evelyn Ashley:

Yep.

Doug Tatum:

Picking up parts, sorting parts, shipping parts, billing for parts, all the things. What's interesting is, for an entrepreneur, they have to understand that there's, particularly in this case, somebody that's at a middle senior level at FedEx or UPS, for example, that's forgotten more about logistics than anybody in that company. They've already made the mistakes. They already know the vendors. They already know the processes that need to be established for a much larger company. When you bring them into that inner circle, you're effectively speeding up the decisions and lowering the risks of the decisions in that area of the business. They will understand the logic of that discussion. The problem is, the inner circle is populated with folks that, when you couldn't pay them, you paid them with a title. Taking that title away almost never ever works. You have left with, "I've got to kick somebody out of my inner circle, and I've got to bring somebody into my inner circle." Everybody understands the significance of that in the company. It is very difficult to do, but I can tell you a company will not get to scale without doing that. Most entrepreneurs, it's a very difficult thing to do. I will tell you, if I go to speak to 100 entrepreneurial CEOs and, let's say, one-half of the audience really doesn't have a value proposition that can scale outside the personal efforts of the entrepreneurs. They're small giants, right?

Evelyn Ashley:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Doug Tatum:

The other ones, because of the markets they're in, because of the promises they've made, they have to scale. If I ask them how many of them are facing that issue within their inner circle, 100% of them will raise their hands.

John Monahon:

That's fascinating to me. I think this is something that we could make a whole show out of in and of itself, talking about the management. We need to take a quick break. When we come back, we're going to talk more about the business model.

John Monahon:

Welcome back to In Process. We're here with Doug Tatum, Chairman of the Board for Newport Board Group and also the author of No Man's Land. When we broke, we were talking about management. We were going to start talking a little bit more about the model. First, before we continue to that, I think we wanted to ask a question that we discussed over the break. Is it usually necessary, Doug, in your experience that people have to replace maybe one or two individuals in their inner circle? Or is it more likely most of their inner circle has to be replaced?

Doug Tatum:

That's an excellent question. My experience has been that initially there are some glaring candidates for replacement. But over time, I would suggest that the majority of that original inner circle gets changed out. The reason being it's very, very rate for an emerging growth company to have in its ranks folks that understand what a business two to three to four to five times its current size actually looks like. Entrepreneurs are world class at what I call instinctive decision making. They have the ability to kind of look around the corners and see things a little more clearly and are a little more apt to act on those instincts than the typical business leader. What they've got to do is move and de-risk the decisions around the business based on experience. In other words, with folks that already know what it looks like before you get there. Not to throw out the instinct but to combine it with more experienced decisions makers so that the velocity, the speed, and accuracy of decision making has got to improve going forward. Therefore, what you're going to find is ... For example, I'll use the technology needs of a smaller business are significantly different than a larger one where you might have to put an ERP in.

Evelyn Ashley:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Doug Tatum:

The technology executives are going to be completely different. Let's take the finance side, the accounting side. The accounting needs of a smaller business are going to be completely different than where you're going to end up having, perhaps, outside investors and more capital requirements and more sophisticating reporting at scale. You're going to end up with somebody that's a chief financial officer that knows how to put that together. Then go back to what you guys do as general counsel for these businesses. One of the most important things to recognize is that the entrepreneur is not going to get it right every time. Nobody does. Jack Welch wouldn't get it right every time. You're going to have to get more sophisticated about ... Your audience is out there saying, "Well, that's great Tatum. How do I hire somebody I can't afford?"

Evelyn Ashley:

Right.

Doug Tatum:

Well, that opens up the capital structure. You're going to have to share equity. You're going to have to create bonus plans. Those are the things you do, but you have to do them in a sophisticated way so that you can unwind them. You know, you don't want a real estate lawyer who is world class at structuring a real estate deal, for example, figuring out how to put stock option plans or putting stock grants together and figuring out how to unwind them if it doesn't work out.

Evelyn Ashley:

Right.

Doug Tatum:

You guys know the importance of that.

Evelyn Ashley:

Before we leave that though, Doug ... Sorry, I'm going to keep you on this because it's just so interesting to me. Do you find that an entrepreneur who is a majority owner, or maybe even 100% owner of his business or her business, do they have to replace themselves? Should they replace themselves eventually?

Doug Tatum:

I have seen just as many, or if not more, travesties where the entrepreneur decided that they were going to replace themselves as I have the other.

Evelyn Ashley:

Okay, unsuccessful.

Doug Tatum:

The issue is that the entrepreneur has to replace their inner circle, not themselves.

Evelyn Ashley:

Right.

Doug Tatum:

I'll give you a story. I won't, on the radio, indicate who it was. There is a very, very high profile woman in the fashion business who was referred to me by Inc. Magazine years ago. I won't tell you enough about it to figure out who it is. She had a woman's fashion business that was growing very nicely. She was in no man's land. I was asked to get on the phone with her. I said, "Well, what are you good at?" She says, "I know how to pick clothes for this type of woman in this part of the country. I know it cold. I know how it's supposed to fit." I said, "What happens to you if you don't do that right?" You know the product cycle of fashions, Evelyn, are like ...

Evelyn Ashley:

Mm-hmm (affirmative), 15 seconds.

Doug Tatum:

... one season. Exactly.

Evelyn Ashley:

Yeah.

Doug Tatum:

I said, "What are you being told?" "Well, I need to find somebody to come in and run the business that I started." I said, "Well, let me tell you what's going to happen. If they're not as in tuned as you are with your customers, you're out of business in one fashion cycle." I said, "However, how much of the issues are you dealing with relate to the logistics of putting a supply chain together?" Garment supply chains are all international, right?

Evelyn Ashley:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Doug Tatum:

Driving all the issues with a large scale internet. She said, "Oh, that's huge." I said, "Well, do you have any competitors that you really admire that might not be right in your space but are much, much larger?" She named a few of them. I said, "Well, you need to go steal one of their mid-level or top-level executives, and bring him in as the person in charge of that. She said, literally quote/unquote,"Can you do that?"

Evelyn Ashley:

Uh, yeah.

Doug Tatum:

I said, "Yeah, you can do that." You're going to have to go out and share ownership. You're going to have to figure out a way to do that because entrepreneurs are control freaks, rightly so. How do you do that the right way so if you do make a mistake, you haven't jeopardized the business? I think if you go through it logically like that, they are much more open because they need to understand how it works.

Evelyn Ashley:

They can see, yeah. They can see the process and why it works.

John Monahon:

That's interesting. We have a little bit of time left. I want to bring it back to the model. I've been trying to get this one in here for a while.

Evelyn Ashley:

Sorry.

John Monahon:

This is something I found interesting. Your discussion about high performance, cheap labor model. Because I find a lot of businesses find themselves in this sort of circle reluctantly. Can you talk a little bit about the high performance, cheap labor model, and sort of how you can break out of that?

Doug Tatum:

The high performance, cheap labor is a way of getting the entrepreneur to understand the microeconomics of a business. What you have to look at strategically is that ultimately a business has to compete for its talent in a marketplace. They have to be paid normal wages for normal efforts. In the early days of a business, what you end up having is a core group of people that deliver superhuman performance at below their compensation equivalencies, particularly the owner. Many times, the owner or the entrepreneurship can make a lot more money working for somebody else, particularly as hard as they're working, than they do in their own business, correct? What I want to illustrate so that they understand is that if they make a profit early on, it's most likely because they're not paying themselves a market rate, and some of the folks around them are not being paid a market rate. So the value proposition effectively is partially high performance, cheap labor. Now that's not scalable. The entrepreneur needs to understand that as the business grows, there has to be a value proposition that his or her customers will applaud the business for above its cost structure. Or else the business is really all about the entrepreneur and their efforts. That's where the profits are coming from. What you're looking for, now you just flip right back from the model to the market, is that it's so critical to say, "Do I have a value proposition, somebody that will knowingly pay me above my cost structure, that doesn't involve my personal efforts eventually?" If you do, then you have a scalable business model. If you don't, you need to stay small and build a business around your own efforts. The difference in valuations are huge, but that's okay. Being a small giant, you can be very influential in your community, very influential in lots of ways. You can make lots of money. It's just the business itself will not have the same value as one where somebody ... Somebody is going to buy a business for the people and processes you leave them with, not your personal efforts.

John Monahon:

Right. I think that ties back to the management as well because you can't run a high performance, cheap labor model and be able to bring in great outside managers and management into the company. That's difficult to scale that way either. So it seems like finding your value proposition is the key to the scalable business and really getting out of no man's land.

Doug Tatum:

That's absolutely the point of the spear. I think we're probably down to a minute or so, but I think you could sum up the issues with an interesting statistic. At Newport, we have a technology ... We do a lot of courses around the country called The Growth Challenge Workshop. In that course we create a benchmark button where entrepreneurs can answer a series of Four M questions, and then actually have their teams answer the same questions and get a report that lets them kind of get some intelligence about that issue. About 85% of the entrepreneurs believe that their inner circle or the management team can articulate a common value proposition. About 5% or so of the management teams can actually do that.

Evelyn Ashley:

Wow.

John Monahon:

Well, I've really enjoyed this today.

Evelyn Ashley:

It's fantastic, fantastic. Thank you so much, Doug.

John Monahon:

Yeah, thank you Doug.

Doug Tatum:

Glad to be able to join you guys. Thank you.